Leadership development reinvented: Moving beyond traditional training

00:03 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Welcome to HR Disrupted with me, lucy Adams. Each episode will explore innovative approaches for leaders and HR professionals and challenge the status quo with inspiring but practical people strategies. So if you’re looking for fresh ideas, tips and our take on the latest HR trends, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, and welcome to the HR Disrupted podcast, where I’m joined today by the co-founder with me, of Disruptive HR, karen Moran. Hi, karen.

00:40 – Karen Moran (Host)
Hi, how are?

00:41 – Lucy Adams (Host)
you. I’m good, I’m really good, thank you. Yes, spring’s on its way, it’s lovely. So we speak to hundreds, if not thousands, of HR professionals every year and they continue to tell us that their biggest problem is that they have too many people leaders who are no good at leading people.

01:07
It’s just a bit of a shame, isn’t it? But I mean it’s really. I think it’s just so sad. You know we’re still promoting people into leadership or manager management roles. People management roles, you know, and they, they wanted the promotion, the progression, the extra salary, know all good, valid reasons, but they’re just not motivated. They don’t get their kicks by leading other people. You know they’re great individual contributors but they still struggle to kind of even do the basics of people leadership well, don’t they? And now we? You know there are clearly alternatives to that. You know, not promoting reluctant leaders, alternative career paths, etc. But that’s a whole other topic, a subject for another day. Today what we’re going to look at is how you can develop the people leaders that we’ve already got, and I mean we’ve done some real horrors, haven’t we as HR directors. So mainly we’re going to be talking about the mistakes we’ve made as HR directors in trying to get people leaders to do it better.

02:19 – Karen Moran (Host)
I think as well, we have to take some responsibility of us in HR as well. We have to take some responsibility of us in HR again our mistakes of expecting leaders to just do the processes that we keep peddling out and then we wonder why they’re not infused and excited about their role. So I think there is actually an opportunity for us to not have all of that and just to say your primary purpose is to get the best out of your team. You know, we’re not going to give you all these processes, we’re not going to make you jump through hoops. Just do it your own way, don’t you think?

02:54 – Lucy Adams (Host)
I do, I do and I think that it’s probably worth unpicking where we feel leadership development has gone wrong in the past. And again, no higher moral ground here. We’ve done everything that we are about to criticise but then to offer some alternatives as we go through this podcast today, and as you say, I think there are lots of things that we can do differently, that are not costly, that actually are highly engaging but it does grossly that actually are highly engaging but it does. We kind of need to acknowledge where things have gone wrong first, yeah, before we can then refresh.

03:31
So let’s kick off with what we think’s gone wrong with leadership development, yeah, and and I think that for me, what stands out is that we’ve positioned leadership development and leadership as that they need to be some kind of superhero. You know we’ve told leaders that they need to be kind of brilliant at everything. You know they need to be strategic, they need to be emotionally intelligent, they need to be resilient, they need to be inspirational, need to be great at giving feedback, brilliant at planning, you know all of these things, and they’ve got to be bigger, stronger, more knowledgeable than everybody else. And, of course, no leader is perfect like that. They’ve all got their blind spots, their weaknesses, their great strengths, and I don’t think we should be aiming for perfection, should we?

04:21 – Karen Moran (Host)
No, absolutely, and that what, probably what we’ve done? Do you remember the competency frameworks? Oh, yeah, uh, you know this, this sort of bingo cards of where we try and tick all the boxes. Um, you know, I think you and I’ve worked in organizations. Well, I probably developed them where we had, like you know, 50 different behavioral indicators and then we would have the kind of positive and the negative, yeah, the contra indicators, yeah, and then we’d have it in levels, so it wasn’t just one for every leader, it would be, you know, if you’re a junior leader, if you’re a middle leader, if you’re a senior leader. Oh god, I mean, I’ve written them and I presented them and I know that, you know, I’ve been so proud of mine, but me much, the team look what we’ve done and they kind of nod and then never look at it.

05:13 – Lucy Adams (Host)
And that’s one of the challenges, isn’t it, with these competency frameworks is? You know? They’re so confusing. I remember interviewing for to promote somebody into a leadership role with another leader. So I was interviewing with this other leader and we’d introduced this competency framework that we were really proud of, and I couldn’t understand why the leader I was interviewing with didn’t make eye contact with the person that they were interviewing throughout the entire interview. They were just looking down at this bit of paper and I said to him afterwards I was like, you know, maybe we could have done with a bit more engaging, you know, with the individual. And he was like, yeah, but I was trying to tick off conferences, you know, it became all about ticking boxes and filling out the form and you, nobody can remember them, can they? You know, once you go past three, nobody’s going to remember them. It’s a bit like values. We used to at the BBC, have our values on the back of our lanyards and I would say, right, put the lanyard down so you can’t see. Now tell us what the values were. And there were five, and nobody could ever remember more than three. Now tell us what the values were, and there were five, and nobody could ever remember more than three, so they’re confusing.

06:28
Once you get past three competencies, kind of forget it. But also, I think, by positioning leadership as this, you’ve got to be good at everything. They end up feeling like they’re kind of constantly falling short, don’t they? You know, I’m good at that, but I’m not good at that. Therefore, I’m not the complete leader, and the reality is is that they don’t need to be superheroes. You know, the best leaders, as you described earlier, are those who see their primary role as getting the best from their teams. You know, and that’s a very different job to the way that we’ve positioned it.

07:05 – Karen Moran (Host)
Absolutely. And then when, perhaps when we think about the training that we then offer to help them, we do that kind of sheep dip, don’t we? Where everyone gets the same training. You know we might split it into this is for senior leaders, because they’re special, yeah, and you know, it doesn’t matter whether you, you know your experience, your learning preferences, maybe we don’t think about what’s going on perhaps for them and their team or, even worse, we kind of force them to come.

07:32 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So let’s make it mandatory. And that’s awful, isn’t it? That we are so lacking in confidence in our product of a leadership development program that we have to force people to come because we don’t think they’ll show up. Now again, I know that sometimes we hear that, you know, leaders are too busy and that they haven’t got the time, and it makes it really difficult and it’s really important that we they do this training. But if you’ve, if you’ve made it mandatory, they are not in the right headspace to learn. I mean childlike behavior, isn’t it? You feel you’re constrained. It mandatory they are not in the right headspace to learn?

08:05 – Karen Moran (Host)
I mean childlike behavior, isn’t it? You feel you’re constrained. It’s like now you’re forcing me.

08:10 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So even if it’s good I’m, I’m not going to be happy about it yeah, they’re turning up with that sort of slightly sulky teenager attitude before, so they’re not leaning in and curious and so, yeah, the kind of classic sheep dip mandatory training programs that are very expensive, that take a long time and also are incredibly theoretical and academic. You know, do you remember, like you know again, leaders that we worked with? They loved a big academic leadership program, didn’t they you?

08:44 – Karen Moran (Host)
know they all wanted to go to Harvard.

08:46 – Lucy Adams (Host)
They all wanted to go to INSEAD or London Business School. You know they had academic qualifications coming out of every pore. They didn’t need another academic qualification, they didn’t need more theory. They really needed practical rehearsals, trying stuff out, experimenting, getting more comfortable with some of these techniques. You know they needed tools that would help them in the moment Like you know, how does this help me with tomorrow’s team conflict or decision that I’ve got to make. So I think you’re right.

09:26
I think that kind of you know the classic approach where we would put on the leadership development program and and then we would, kind of, you know, highlight the high potentials who would go on it, and we’ll talk about high potentials a bit later on, high potentials a bit later on.

09:46
So I think you know we’ve got these kind of complicated descriptions of the kind of skills you’ve got to have and all the things you’ve got to be as a leader, which is re-emphasizing this idea of leader as superhero.

09:58
The competencies are confusing, they can’t remember it. We’re then forcing them into mandatory training which takes them away from the day job, which they can ill afford. They are reluctant, resistant, they’re not perhaps engaged in the training, even if it’s great training, but equally, it tends to be a bit academic, it tends to be a bit theoretical, a bit theoretical. So now that we’ve kind of completely dissed all of our leadership development approaches, let’s have a look at what the new trends are and what we’re seeing is actually working. And I think you know we’ll kick off with the first one, which is, instead of trying to define who they are and what we want them to be, instead of having these long lists of competencies and attributes, what we’re seeing with this first trend, which I think is so powerful, is that the more progressive companies are just really clear on a few things that they want their leaders to actually do. So it’s not who they want them to be skills, attributes, mindsets, long lists, a few things that they want them to do in relation to their people.

11:11 – Karen Moran (Host)
Yeah, it’s just so refreshing, and I think when we first started 10 years ago, there was so little on this, and now, every month, I’m seeing another organization that’s doing this, that’s coming up with really simple outcomes. So we’ve got a couple of examples to share with you. So Salesforce is one where they say three things build a great team, be a great person to work with, deliver great results together. So, really simple, these are three things we expect you to do, and our all-time favorite is SAP. We expect you to do these three things coach your team, show appreciation and lead with trust. And I think, when we actually break that down, even though it sounds a bit simplistic, isn’t that what we want leaders to do? Isn’t that what we want as employees of?

12:09 – Lucy Adams (Host)
those leaders Completely. And I think you know we talk about high performing teams or we talk about, you know, high levels of engagement, or we talk about, you know well-being and we talk about all this stuff. You know wellbeing and we talk about all this stuff, but actually what SAP have really cleverly done is that they have narrowed it down to being very clear about what the leader needs to do to create those environments. So, coach your team. So that’s all about high performance, showing appreciation. That’s about you know that high levels of engagement. We know that regular, frequent appreciation and recognition leads to higher engagement. And then this lead with trust, which is so simple, difficult to do but so important because we know you look at the work from, say, paul Zak You’ve got KPIs going in the right direction productivity, innovation, performance, even stress levels. The KPIs go in the right directions when people feel trusted.

13:11
What I also love about what Salesforce and SAP are doing is that they hold leaders accountable for this. So, instead of the HR team focusing all their efforts on the carrot you know, here’s some more training. You know, here’s another academic course. You can go on they’re saying we’re going to be very clear on the outcomes that we expect from you. How you do that is up to you. We’ll coach you. We can help you if you’re not sure, but we are going to measure it. So we’re going to measure it through regular pulse surveys. So they’ll ask questions, like you know. Does your leader help, coach you to do a better job? Does your leader, uh, show you that you are appreciated regularly? Does your leader create an environment where you can do your best work because you’ve got autonomy? They probably phrase it slightly snappier than that, um, but if you’re not getting decent marks in these regular pulse surveys I think they do it quarterly then you don’t get to go on and manage more people because actually they’re saying it’s too important. Yeah.

14:18 – Karen Moran (Host)
And so it should be. You know, we hold leaders to account for every other aspect of their business, don’t we? In terms of their customers, their budgets, but we kind of just don’t do this.

14:29 – Lucy Adams (Host)
No, and in fact you know how many times have we had arguments at the board where the board wanted to cover up the results of the survey because they didn’t like what it was telling them. So you’re getting this annual bun fight because or we can’t probably possibly put this out, but what salesforce and sap say is no, if we say this is, if we say people, leadership matters in the same way that the finances matter and the customer matters, then why wouldn’t we?

14:55 – Karen Moran (Host)
Absolutely. Why wouldn’t we hold people accountable I think it’s Salesforce as well that they say they do it so that people internally can see which team they want to work in. Again, so transparent about oh, look at that team’s score. Is that somewhere that I’d like to maybe work?

15:10 – Lucy Adams (Host)
in Exactly, yeah, exactly, so that internal mobility is being supported by it.

15:15 – Karen Moran (Host)
So the better leaders attract the better people, and, of course, you’re going to give them some time, because we all know I remember having leaders where maybe they were new into the role and they were having to perhaps sort out the mess that the last leader left behind and they were having difficult conversations and trying to kind of raise the bar in their team and, of course, if you were asking them, the survey, the scores probably would be bad. So you know we, but we know these leaders, we would know when to kind of we need to give this a bit more time because we appreciate what’s going on for them. So so it’s not black and white either.

15:50 – Lucy Adams (Host)
No, no, no, it’s not like you get one bad quarter’s marks and you’re out. But I think it’s looking at trend data, isn’t it? And, in the end, if you haven’t got leaders that are able to say, my team are coached to higher performance, feel appreciated and recognized and I created an environment where they feel trusted, then we don’t want you to be a leader in the future. So it’s that trend data. So I think that accountability is really important, but linked to very simple, no more than three outcomes that you want from them.

16:26
Let’s have a look at the second trend that we’re seeing, which, again, I think is something that has real value and is not an area, perhaps, that we’ve focused on as much. We’ve tended to say these are the skills that we think the organization needs. Therefore, we’ll put this training program together and then we’ll make you go on to it. But, as you said at the start, of course, leaders come with all sorts of different experiences. They are different capabilities, different learning styles, different issues, and that’s what this second trend is about. It’s that it’s much more personalized and the development is owned and led and driven by the leader themselves. It’s not something that HR is going to do to them. It’s something that is their responsibility. Of course we’re going to work with them, but they own it and they drive it.

17:20 – Karen Moran (Host)
And it goes back to the trust point that you made earlier. You know we want to feel in control rather than being told what to do. So that really helps that autonomy of a leader to feel that they’re responsible themselves to decide what’s right for them. Yeah, so, um, we know a couple of examples. So pixar um, they do some great things. Now. They run workshops for their leaders so that they can explore who they are, their, their leadership style, their strengths, their weaknesses, maybe an opportunity, perhaps to reflect on the impact their leadership style has on their team. And then they decide where do they want to focus, where do they want to take their learning? And I really like that.

18:04
And I think again, today we’ve got AI there, so we don’t even need to spoon feed the development to them. So imagine that that manager has gone on the Pixar workshop. They could literally go on to chat GPT and say this is an area I’d like to develop, either a strength I want to get better at, or maybe something that maybe is holding me back. Think that maybe is holding me back. Give me some ideas about the top five TED Talks or some nudges that I could apply every day, or what is my. You know how can I personalize my leadership development journey? So again, we’ve got to stop thinking that HR team’s going to need big budgets, big L&D teams, because there is so much that actually they can do themselves and it’s just the polar opposite of the.

18:53 – Lucy Adams (Host)
We’re going to put you through this sheep dip um training regardless of your interest, your style, your personality, your preferences. Um, where they’re turning up because they have to, they’re annoyed because they’ve got having to take a day out of a very busy schedule, and instead it’s about saying you’re a grown up, if you’ve taken on the responsibility of leadership, then we expect you to be curious about your own development. We expect you to continually grow, and I love this idea of kind of our role in HR becoming less about doing it to them and more about giving them the tools that they can do it for themselves.

19:34 – Karen Moran (Host)
Yeah, we’re creating the environment, aren’t we Exactly, and I think we miss that point so often?

19:41 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. And if people are listening to this and they’re thinking, oh, I don’t know where to start with this, then something that we’ve developed that you can get your hands on is a leadership diagnostic tool, and it just kind of helps leaders to figure out their style and areas to focus on. So we’ll put the link to that and you can go and have a look at that. We’ll put that in the show notes, in the podcast notes. Okay, let’s have a look then at the third trend that we’re seeing, which is all about broadening out the kind of leadership pool who gets leadership development. Because, again, because it was so expensive, we’ve tended to go well, this has only got to be for high potentials. So we’ve done our nine box grids, haven’t we, where we’ve kind of assessed them and we’ve put a few people into the top right hand box and they’re the ones who are going to get it. And also, we focused it on senior leaders, haven’t we?

20:48 – Karen Moran (Host)
We have and I think you know again you know as someone that came from a sort of talent management role all of our time our money was all around that kind of perceived 10% of the organisation and again, I think, thankfully we’re seeing this move away from more about creating opportunities so that anyone who is interested in leadership can get something, can progress. They’re not waiting to be tapped on the shoulder. They can find ways of getting exposure and learning that’s going to help them if they want to apply for a leadership development role. So I know that Standard Charter, for example, they said that they were focusing all of their efforts again on that kind of hype. You know the senior leadership group and we know that unfortunately, we get a bit arrogant, we get a bit sort of like well, this has worked for me in the past, you can’t teach me anything, I know everything, font of all knowledge. And so they kind of clocked that and said right, we’re just going to move away from the resistant leaders and we’re going to invest all of our effort in emerging ones. So the people that are perhaps kind of more in more junior leadership roles, who are more open to change for this stuff, to more likely to stick with them and I think that’s a real smart move.

22:11
And, yeah, and Nestle have a great example where they just did what we call reframing. So instead of you know, when I’d be with a manager I’d be talking about you know, tell me about your high potential, what are we going to do with them? How are we going to get them development? And they’ve just literally switched the conversation to say, instead of talking about that, I want you to think, as a manager, that everyone in your team has potential, because of course, they have and is ready for something new. So you’re just reframing that question instead of getting them to talk about what they perceive as their high potential and thinking about their broader HR team. Everyone has potential, is ready for a new challenge. It might not be leadership, and that’s fine. Everyone has potential, is ready for a new challenge. It might not be leadership, and that’s fine. It might be becoming a deeper expert or whatever it might be, and I just think that’s again a really smart move from them.

23:11 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and you know, as we know, you and I we’ve we’ve kind of produced high potential programmes. For me, the high potential programme was almost like the kiss of death. You know, it’s almost like anybody I put on a high potential program would either leave or get fired within the next year, because sometimes, like, their expectations are raised, aren’t they? Oh, I’m a high potential, therefore I must be getting my next leadership role, and then we wouldn’t tell people who weren’t put on the leadership high potential program, and then they’d be getting fed up yeah, all the seniors would be really pissed off because they found out.

23:41 – Karen Moran (Host)
Why have they been put?

23:43 – Lucy Adams (Host)
on.

23:44 – Karen Moran (Host)
Tell them, would we, we wouldn’t dare tell them they hadn’t been chosen um I was with a client actually a few weeks ago and they said that their high potential program is actually where leaders send people who who actually are poor performers so in the hope, perhaps they might learn something, but obviously you know the wrong message there and I think cb did some great research a while ago which said that um around 70 percent of high potential programs deliver no return on investment whatsoever.

24:16 – Lucy Adams (Host)
That doesn’t surprise me. Yeah, exactly so broadening out our talent pool. Not placing all of our bets on a very few, very senior, very expensive and perhaps less curious, less open leaders, but instead broadening it out both in terms of hierarchy and also in terms of the kind of the not the usual suspects. Broadening that talent pool wider, ok, so now we’re going to just have a quick look at some of the new development techniques that we’re seeing. Yeah, and how are they delivering leadership development in different ways, and I suppose the big themes here are practical real life. Short and sweet is probably a way of thumbing it up, isn’t?

25:08 – Karen Moran (Host)
it and we’ve got some examples haven’t we? We can yeah yeah, and I think the probably to add to that the personalized bit. So, yeah, I’m thinking I remember when I was, when we were at the bbc and we were, we were running, we did some quite good leadership development and we did try and keep it really practical leadership playlist.

25:27
It was good so we were ahead of its time yeah, ahead of its time, um and. But within that I can remember, because we had to kind of test out the suppliers that we were using, and there was one awful session Well, it was awful for me where we had to sit in a circle and then we had a purple, a purple cushion. You had to pass around the purple cushion and talk about how you were feeling and I don’t know about. Well, I know you, lucy, it’s our biggest dread, anything like that. It’s just, oh, I remember just feeling so awful, embarrassed. It’s really not my sort of development and I was trying to imagine the kind of the journalists at the BBC they’re probably sitting there writing up the story about wasting the taxpayer’s money you know, bbc licence fee payers’ money.

26:23 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Whilst they were on it, at least they didn’t make you sing a song. I’ve been on a leadership development programme where it’s this whole thing about us, the idea of, you know, creating a choir and a team and we all had to sing and I can still feel the agony. You know, it just makes me want to kind of crawl into a hole when I think about that and I think that’s where we get to the.

26:46 – Karen Moran (Host)
It needs to be personalized, because if I, that’s not the sort of thing that you and I would want to do, and being forced into doing that if it’s not your style is kind of we switch people off, um. So I think this practical idea is is really good. So we know, like american water, when they come together, leaders for development, they actually solve business problems. So that just makes so much more sense, doesn’t it? It’s grounded in what is going on. What are are you struggling with? How can we solve it together and learning through solving business problems.

27:21 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and I think you know most leaders would go, yeah, ok, I’ll go along with that, because actually I can get some help with the problem. And I’m is looking at mentoring, but not in the kind of classic big mentoring program where HR writes all the policies and the rules and the training and owns it, but actually just very informal. So, abercrombie Paramount, they have this informal pop-up mentoring, don’t they? And kind of it’s. It’s really informal.

27:57
Yeah, there’s not a big manual, there’s not a training program that you have to go on. It just says anyone anywhere in the organization can book a chat, a coffee with anyone else in the organization if they believe they could help them develop. And it’s you’re not restricted. You can’t sort of say like, well, here’s my mentor for the next year you could have three mentors, ten mentors doesn’t matter. Ultimately it’s about what you need, but you’re owning and driving it. Yeah, and and again, you know there are some great kind of digital solutions that can help people connect. So it’s the way, it’s the mechanics of connecting people, but it’s about HR being quite hands-off around that and just allowing people to own it and drive it for themselves.

28:44 – Karen Moran (Host)
Love that and I think again we’re seeing this more peer-to-peer. So you have so much knowledge already in your organisation you don’t need to bring in people like Lucy and I. You know you can learn from each other. So we have Patagonia. They have what they call leadership circles, where leaders come together to share their advice, their challenges, their learning, patreon, use their comms channel. So again, are we making as much use of our comms channels?

29:15
If you’re on Slack or MS Teams and you can create a kind of like a community, because we know managers they’re time poor. To have something that’s kind of in where they’re working anyway is much more helpful. Where they might be popping in a question of like I’m struggling with this, they don’t need to give confidential information away, but getting support from each other I really like. And Novo Nordisk, the HR team, set up this kind of very informal manager club. So you know, once a month or whatever it might be, we come together and we talk about a particular issue. So we might talk about hybrid working or having difficult conversations or just, but very informal, not like I used to do manager development, where I’d go in with my powerpoint slides and this is how you do the process. It’s nothing to do with process, it’s just how can we get better at having these conversations and it’s hard for us in HR sometimes, isn’t it?

30:11 – Lucy Adams (Host)
because we think we’ve yeah, you’re asking managers to invest an hour of their time. We know they’re time poor and I haven’t got 25 pages of slide deck to show them. I’m not going in as the expert, I’m going in as a facilitator to help them learn from each other, and that takes quite a bit of confidence. It does, but I think you know, we know, from having worked with clients where we’ve suggested this and then they’ve picked it up and they’ve run with it, that actually it goes so well, leaders love it and they are genuinely learning. And the other thing just, I suppose, to add to that is the temptation, then, is to make it mandatory because they’re worried that people won’t come. And what we would suggest is, you know, start with a few early adopters, just get it going, get it building momentum, get people talking about it, and then they’ll be the ones saying, oh I attended this brilliant session and it builds from there, rather than this is your date and you’ve got to go and chat to people. So, again, this doesn’t cost anything apart from the manager’s time.

31:20
And another trend that we’re seeing with development techniques that costs almost nothing is this idea of nudges, leadership nudges so people will already be familiar with nudge theory. It’s this kind of idea that if you prompt somebody to try something new or a different approach at the point where they’re just about to do it or at the point of need, then that can be a very impactful, powerful way of doing it. It’s not about putting them on a training program three months earlier because they’ll forget it. It’s know when’s the best time to nudge them. So, um, classically, google use these, don’t they? Yeah, um. So, uh, google have. They call their nudges whispers, so they have things like um, they have an automated email that goes to the hiring manager on the sunday night before they start the starts, because that’s when the manager’s thinking about it oh no, look at my diary.

32:19
Oh no, johnny’s starting with me tomorrow. Oh bloody hell, what am I going to do? But what it says is just a reminder Johnny’s starting with you tomorrow. Just make sure that they’ve got a buddy book, a check-in, and make sure that they know your door’s always open. Really simple, but helping them to think about leadership at the point where they might need it. So I think again just changes the role of HR. You know, a lot of the time we are asking our leaders for information or telling them they’ve got to do stuff. But actually, these little prompts around recognition or trust or helping them learn or career development or performance, these little nudges. You’re not going to change the world, but it can be so powerful, can’t it?

33:12 – Karen Moran (Host)
Yeah, I love that idea and we should do a little plug Lucy. Oh yeah, love that idea and we should do a little plug Lucy. Oh yeah, so we do have a platform that is kind of almost nudge-based. So it’s built on the same principles. We do bite-sized learning, practical nudges, short five-minute videos, toolkits that you can read in a minute, and we try and make it really practical and relevant to what leaders are dealing with. So if you want to check it out, have a look on um, our just type in disruptive leaders, or go on our disruptive hr website and you’ll find it there if you’re interested I’ll put the link in the post as well.

33:50 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Good, and on that sales push, we’ll wrap it up. Um felt like there was a little opportunity there absolutely um.

33:59
So leadership development doesn’t have to mean long training programs or complicated frameworks. It’s about just being really clear on the outcomes that you want, what you want them to do, not who you want them to be. Letting leaders own their own development, drive it, own it self-reflection, learn the way that they need and want to learn. It’s about broadening, about who we invest in, and obviously if we’re doing it in more cost-effective, cheaper ways, then that makes it feasible. And it’s about making learning practical, real and accessible. I think that’s probably it for today. It’s been great chatting to you and thanks so much for listening in. If you’re enjoying it, make sure you subscribe. We’re also available on YouTube If you prefer to get your podcasts that way. Just check out HR Disrupted on YouTube. But that’s it for today. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll be speaking to you next time. Bye for now.

35:05 – Karen Moran (Host)
Bye.