The two-year itch: Rethinking Retention for the Modern Tech Workforce

00:03 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Welcome to HR Disrupted with me, lucy Adams. Each episode will explore innovative approaches for leaders and HR professionals and challenge the status quo with inspiring but practical people strategies. So if you’re looking for fresh ideas, tips and our take on the latest HR trends, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Many of our talent and career development models stem from kind of like another age. You know, when we joined a company got a number of promotions, stayed as long as the company allowed us to.

00:42
And of course, nowadays the reality for many of us is very different. You know, flatter structures can offer fewer promotional opportunities. Volatile markets mean that the longevity of companies has declined. And, you know, whilst there’s still quite a bit of debate about whether Gen Z and millennials do want to change companies more often, in one sector there’s clear evidence that retaining your people is more of a challenge. In the tech sector, employees are changing jobs or companies every two years or so, and this is a particular challenge for smaller tech companies where promotional opportunities might be more limited. So how do HR directors tackle these challenges in these sectors? Is it about creating golden handcuffs or just accepting that it’s the new normal? Well, with me on today’s episode to discuss this issue is Matt Kennedy, cpo at Go1, which is a leading learning content provider. So welcome Matt.

01:48 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Thank you, lucy, nice to be with you today.

01:50 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Where are you joining us from?

01:52 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Right now I am just outside of Seattle Washington, where you can see a little bit of sunspots on me. We’ve got the rare sunny day going on. I wasn’t planning for it this morning, but, yeah, just a little bit of Northwest here in the US. I wasn’t planning for it this morning, but yeah, I just visited.

02:04 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Northwest here in the US. Oh well, great, and yeah, we’re enjoying it. It’s early April here, and the UK has had more sunshine in April than I think since I’ve been born, so we’re both very blessed today. So let’s kick off with you telling us a little bit about your career journey and also a little bit about Go1, with you telling us a little bit about your career journey and also a little bit about Go1, because there might be HR professionals who are listening to this who don’t know about Go1 as a product. So tell us about your career journey, then tell us a bit about Go1, and then we’ll get into the topic for today.

02:39 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Yeah, I guess you know, if I think about my career journey, I think it’s best described as a combination of breadth and depth, and I often joke that I like to get paid to learn. That’s how I’ve been able to craft what my journey’s looked like so far. I think of thus far there’s been three major tenures that have shaped who I am as a leader and a professional. Who I am as a leader and a professional my corporate career, if you will, began at Microsoft, just here in the local area quite a while ago. I was there for nine years and I often describe that tenure as where I learned to be a professional.

03:18
Yeah, truly amazing company. We all know what Microsoft does, but but what was so striking to me is just how many fantastic people and leaders were in the hallways of that organization, and and I feel really fortunate that I got to spend such formative years there, learning um from so many tenured people with such diverse backgrounds, and so it really created this kind of foundational base for me, as it really created this kind of foundational base for me as were they?

03:47 – Lucy Adams (Host)
were they kind of yeah, forgive the terminology, but were they kind of grown-up leaders? Was that a kind of you know, were they? Because we often hear this from, perhaps, people who work in smaller organizations or more emerging sectors that you know, it’s like maybe a bunch of adolescents who got hold of the Ferrari, you know. But my sense is that Microsoft is a kind of proper grown up organization.

04:11 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Yeah, you know, I hadn’t described it that way or thought about it until you asked the question, but I do think about it and certainly I think that would describe it well. You know, it was early in my career, so any once in 10 years seemed older to me. Now I’m probably the same age that some of my mentors.

04:32 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

04:33 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Like changes that way. But yeah, you know, if I think about those leaders who had the most impact on me and my growth and development, they were grownups and they were, you know, developed leaders with multiple experiences, often in different companies. Some had advanced degrees, some had just kind of learned and grown through their career, but they were all so generous in leaning in to share the lessons that they had learned and I thought that was what was so important is that, you know, of course I picked up a tremendous amount of hard skills, but I think I got a bit of the shortcut on the soft skills because they were so generous with their time, their attention, their energy, their mentorship that I could learn through them and their experiences in many ways, kind of have a career, that’s fascinating.

05:22 – Lucy Adams (Host)
You know, I think we we talk so much about learning and development programs and courses and and of course you know, that’s the the industry that you’re in now.

05:31
But yeah but equally, when we look back at you know, those pivotal moments of our careers where we we grew up, we learned so much. You know I mean immediately, as you were talking, one or two of my bosses kind of popped into my mind and you know you think about those sidebar conversations where they helped you just reflect and try something different. And I always remember my, you know, one of the most kind of really helpful bosses. He would just very informally, as we were going to a meeting, just kind of say, right, I want you to kind of lead on this, lucy, and just talk to me about what you want to get from it.

06:06
And then, as we left, he’d say so how do you think that went? And that was usually a sign that it hadn’t gone very well. That classic question. And then he would help me think about well, what might I try next time? And you know it’s hard to imagine that a course or a program would have helped me in the same way. So you did your growing up in Microsoft, in HR, in.

06:27 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
HR. Yeah, you know I’ll tell you it was not necessarily my intent. It wasn’t not my intent. I was a fairly young person looking to make my way in this world somehow.

06:40 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and you know, I was able to I don’t think anybody kind of, you know, sitting there in high school, going I really want to be in HR, it just doesn’t happen, does it? I mean, I wanted to be a ballerina until I got too tall and I wasn’t very good. But you know, we don’t kind of think, oh, we want to be in HR, but we find ourselves there, don’t we?

07:02 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
We did and for me it was, you know, the first role I was able to get. I remember wanting to just get into a company, believing that if I can get in I can figure it out. Now, what I didn’t know was that I would figure it out with a ton of help from a lot of people. So I was just looking for the foot in the door, like, I think, most young people do. I happened to get a recruiting role and you know that first 10 years it’s kind of one role led to another, to another little little pivot of discipline still within HR leads to another. And I remember this, this period of my life and career, looking back and going like, oh, I think I’m in HR now. It wasn’t necessarily what I was doing, but that’s where I’m at.

07:48 – Lucy Adams (Host)
It wasn’t about a conscious decision, it wasn’t. It was like oh, actually I’m an HR person now. Yeah.

07:55 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Yeah.

07:56 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So what happened after Microsoft?

07:59 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Yeah. So you know there was kind of I’ll call it a quick change, right. You know there was kind of I’ll call it a quick change, right. So I had a short tenure at Expedia here in again in the Seattle area, and that was not planned to be short but I did get, you know, one of those calls that you just can’t refuse if that makes sense, and that led to Starbucks. And that led to Starbucks. So I went to Starbucks where I spent over seven and a half years and I described that chapter as where I learned to be an executive.

08:46 – Lucy Adams (Host)
You know, just another kind of iconic company, iconic brand, with filled with tremendous people and professionals who, all you know, taught me in different ways and I saw a post from you recently lamenting you know what’s going on for your former colleagues at Starbucks or what has gone on. You know that must feel very painful, even though you know it’s a bit like me with the BBC and Serco, two of my kind of seminal professional experiences. Even though we’ve left, you still feel an affinity and you’re interested and you feel connected and and and.

09:12
If stuff isn’t, you know it’s not going well in your, in your previous company, you still. It still hurts weirdly, doesn’t it?

09:20 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
It. Well, it does. And, and you know, I think there’s probably two things to that is one, unfortunately, I think, throughout my entire career thus far, the pace and consistency of layoffs has increased. And you know, I think, as I’ve shared, like, I understand the business reasons and unfortunately, in some spots I’ve been on the front edge of helping those activities, yeah, but the, the human disruption, the challenge, the pain is real and and and I hope none of us ever lose sight of that, um so, whether it is, you know, a company I worked at previously, whether it is you know, a colleague who I worked with who has moved on and is impacted, these things matter and they are challenging.

10:11 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So after Starbucks, where next?

10:15 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
So then I moved kind of right in the midst of the pandemic to a home health fitness technology company called Tonal. Yeah, I was in the customer pipeline, happened to get a call. I was already enamored, like in love, with the product. In fact I have one and still use it quite frequently. And it was just this tremendous dream come true opportunity for me. It was just this tremendous dream come true. Opportunity for me is that I had always aspired to work kind of in the.

10:51
Silicon Valley startup technology smaller company but I felt pretty anchored to my location with my family and where my children were in their own high school journeys and you know this pandemic and the remote work and work from home and I just had this opportunity to and a home fitness company in theory company.

11:12 – Lucy Adams (Host)
During COVID like wow.

11:14 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
It was, you know, fantastic, and so I made that pivot.

11:19
It was perhaps the biggest stretch of my career and just in terms of learning, I was there for two and a half years, I think, like many, many companies. During that period of time of COVID and going out of COVID and being a scale up and changing interest rates, there were just a tremendous amount of business challenges that we faced that we led through with just an amazing set of leaders, kind of across a couple different iterations there, and so over that two and a half years really was part of what I’d call a turnaround, and I now describe that chapter as where I learned to be a business leader, because the dynamics of the business were so much at the forefront of our minds because we had to get that right before we could do everything else, and so that was an experience that lasted about two and a half years. I was there a little more than two and a half years and yet those learning cycles felt as I did as much in those longer tenured companies because each cycle was so fast, filled with so much learning.

12:31 – Lucy Adams (Host)
And I also think for HR professionals that move from massive giant corporates into more of a startup or a smaller organization, that our commerciality really is enhanced. As an HR professional, I really do. I was reflecting with my husband actually yesterday or this morning about how, when I worked in big corporates previously, was I as commercial as I could have been? I’m not entirely sure, whereas I think when you’re you’re so, it’s so raw and so visceral and literally you know what money you’re making that week, that month, what’s going out of the business. It’s a very, very different environment and certainly since running my own business, if I was to ever not that I ever will but go back into corporate HR, I’m sure my kind of commerciality has been honed.

13:32 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Oh, without a doubt, I personally don’t have an MBA, but I feel like that was my MBA experience, because the core of the business, the P&L, the balance sheet, the moving pieces was so much at the forefront of what we were thinking about each day, exactly, and then we had to translate that into how we were doing the people agenda. But that learning was instrumental and kind of where I am today and you know where I hope to go forward in the future.

14:00 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So let’s talk about today. Tell us about the company that you’re in and the role that you’ve got there.

14:06 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Go One, yeah, so gosh, I’m probably five or six months in.

14:11
I love it. You know, go One is the largest learning content aggregator on the planet, and so it’s just this fantastic model in which the company has procured over 100,000 learning items corporate learning items from a variety of different providers and they can provide it to other companies in a subscription model, and it spans everything from compliance content the stuff we have to do as HR leaders to remain compliant within the law to upskilling. It has it all. And then there’s flexibility within those subscription models to how companies want to procure it and then deploy it within their own organization. And so, you know, previously I was not aware of GoWon until I, you know, I got a, got a call I guess six months ago, and when I dove in, the first thing I thought was where was this?

15:06
In my last job? That was what I that was really what hooked me in to start that conversation was understanding I needed this product. In the past I had wanted this product and didn’t quite see it, and now it’s there. And so, as I went through that process, I wanted to be part of what we were doing over there and building so tell me about the scale of the organization how many people and sort of talk to me about your role there.

15:34 – Lucy Adams (Host)
I mean, I know you’re the CPO, so what does that actually look like? What are the challenges of working in a smaller tech company?

15:43 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Yeah, you know so-.

15:44 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Smaller versus Microsoft, by the way.

15:46 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Of course, a larger company right. So smaller companies are going to have the unique challenges. I think Go1 just itself provides even more of an I’m going to call it intellectual challenge and opportunity. So one of the things right now, if you look at Go1Core about 450 people and yet we are remarkably global, right, we are operating and have employees in nearly all markets. So here in Europe that was the call I was on this morning we have a presence in North America, australia, where the company was founded, where the core headquarters are, and then throughout APAC, and so we’re in this world where it’s a scaling company.

16:28
It’s still what we’d call small in terms of people, remote first, tremendously distributed, not only with our employees, with our customers, tremendously distributed, not only with our employees, with our customers. And so when I think about that that was one of the things that I found so exciting about being there is how do we scale our culture, our operations, our success with that type of environment? It’s not something I had seen or done before. Now, certainly, as we’ve talked about, I’ve worked in large global environments, but those are normally done at scale. There’s already scaled operations and you move scaled into other countries and you expand from there, whereas now we’re expanding everywhere at once in a remote world. Tremendous challenge, and so I think so much of what I am trying to do is, you know, scale, the culture. Our founder CEO has a very distinct point of view on what our culture is, what it should look like, but we got to line up our understanding and our actions over a period of time to make that come to life. So there’s work with culture.

17:33 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So tell me about the culture, tell me about the organization. Give us a feel for what it means if you’re an employee at Go1.

17:41 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Yeah. So I think, first and foremost, you have a distinct passion for learning and development. Now it is what we do and what we sell, but, without exception, everyone I’ve met at Go1 has that passion in one way, shape or form. Some come from educational backgrounds, others are just constant learners. They see the value in what learning can do for companies and individuals, and so there really is this learning thread that comes throughout all the people and you know, I just see it every day in my interactions.

18:20
But it comes to life, even in things like our survey results, where people talk about what they like best about Goat One. So I think that’s one of the things that’s really, really important. You know, another aspect which is a unique experience I’ve now had twice is we’re founder CEO led, which is just a very distinct type of rhythm, and it means that our CEO doesn’t just look at Go1 as a company in the P&L but really has a deep dream and aspiration and vision for what the company means to people and the culture and how that should look, and so a lot of what I see my job is to help translate that into the programs and approaches so that we can scale that as the company grows.

19:12 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So let’s talk about this issue of employee retention. You know we started the podcast with looking at issues that the tech sector experiences generally. It’s this kind of relatively rapid turnover of people and you know people are either moving for more money or for progression or for progression. But there’s definitely evidence that the tech sector is much more of a higher churn environment than perhaps some of the more traditional ones. How much of a challenge is this for you at Go1?

19:48 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
You know, I think it’s pretty consistent, If I think of industry, of course, in scale up, in technology, in smaller companies. Right, it is now, you know now, something I’ve seen multiple times, and so I do. You know, of course, you’re pointing out a very real dynamic that we deal with Interestingly like we actually have very strong retention in our engineering team at Go1.

20:14 – Lucy Adams (Host)
And so that’s something we’re always learning from, which is quite unusual actually isn’t it Because the poaching that goes on, particularly in Silicon Valley, where you’re literally in the shadows of some of the giants, you know they can pay more money. They can I mean, I, you know. I know a previous HR director of LinkedIn very well and he talked about. You know how literally you’d work for months to convince somebody to join you and then they would call you on a Friday and say Google’s just trebled the offer. What are you going to do? Yeah, and of course it was like good luck. You know we’re not going to be able to match that and and, as a result, you have to kind of think differently and creatively about creating an environment where people want to stay because you can’t match can you, the kind of salaries that they’re paying.

21:03 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Yeah, you know, this is part of where perhaps our geographic distribution comes into our advantage, right?

21:09 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Of course yeah, because they’re not based in where they can literally walk down the road.

21:14 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
So that’s helpful. So that’s helpful. I think being remote first creates a value proposition for some individuals that really find some work-life harmony that they may not in other spots. Then there’s some other distinct aspects where I look at what are Go1’s strengths and what is keeping some of these retention efforts is you know, obviously we talked about the culture. You know the founder CEO led culture. I think it does attract a certain type of person who wants to be on that journey. We’re lucky to have CEOs very articulate about what that vision is, and so I think people do galvanize behind that vision.

21:55
I look at our engagement scores and our manager engagement is sky high. So meaning our frontline employees’ opinions of their managers is just higher than I’ve ever seen in my career. So there’s some unlock there. When every day you come to work feeling connected and supported to both your team and your leader, that, I think, is part of what we’re doing well. That helps with our retention effort. Then the third thing and this is probably not unique to us, but perhaps we’re leaning into it more than others is we get tremendous feedback about the cycles of learning. People see the value in being at a smaller company that focuses on velocity and pragmatism and that they get to do more and impact more and more quickly, knowing that there’s an intrinsic value. And so we hear that quite a bit. And so that you know, despite some of the challenges that are very real of being a smaller tech scale up, those things help with our retention and our employee engagement.

23:00 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So I’ve spoken to other CPOs of small tech, startups or, you know, scaling organizations, and it strikes me that it’s fairly pointless trying to compete with the big boys on big boys terms. That actually it’s about saying and I think that there are so many lessons here for other organizations it doesn’t. It’s yeah, this is not just applicable to tech it’s, uh, it’s about saying so how are we going to differentiate and you’ve talked about some, some of the differentiators there you know the ability to work at home culture, the ability to work on projects that you wouldn’t even get close to if you worked in a major scaled organization here and having an honesty about that, which is you know what do you do.

23:59
for example, if you’ve got somebody that’s ready for promotion, that you can see is ready for promotion, but you just don’t have the roles for them to move into, you know what. What’s your approach to that? Is it try and hang on to them or try and eke it out for a little bit longer, or is it just to say you know what? That’s fine, that’s our business model. We don’t expect to be able to hold on to you.

24:21 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
It’s such a challenge because I do think of Promotion is this combination of individual readiness and business need. And the bigger company you are, you have more of the business needs. In many ways, just your normal attrition is going to create more opportunity. So we’ve got to match that up somehow and in any smaller company it is harder to continue to keep that. Call it upward progression. So I think the way you address that is, with transparency, right. I think you can be very clear with people when they have the individual readiness but the business need isn’t there.

25:03
And of course, I think people can continue to grow within roles. There’s salary growth, there’s equity retention growth that can occur, but sometimes those factor changes that people are seeking in their career is just not going to be realized on the timetable that they may want. And being honest about that, being transparent, having those conversations, I think is critical, because I don’t think we believe that everyone is going to retire from Go1. That’s not our intent. But I do think we believe that the inherent value prop is you are going to grow as a professional here in ways that you may not elsewhere and our hope is that if that journey does lead you somewhere else, that that opens up the opportunity for the next person to kind of grow their own skills, their craft, their experience and they will make the decision over time whether that’s going to stay with Go1 or at some point it’s going to pivot to another company. So I don’t think we shy away from those conversations and I think you’re absolutely right.

26:06 – Lucy Adams (Host)
I think that kind of grown-up conversation. I think you’re absolutely right. I think that kind of grown up conversation, adult to adult. You know, we hope that the growth in role, the additional remuneration hikes, might do something to kind of satisfy that need for progression. But on occasion it’s just not going to work, in which case we wish you well. You know. Know, we really hope that you’ve had an amazing time at go one um. And you know, I like what I hear from other companies who are saying, you know, it’s no longer this kind of traditional alumni network where you send the odd newsletter but they are, you know, inviting them back. You know linkedin were, you know my um friend at linkedin was talking about, would you know, ask people to come back and talk about the amazing job they’d gone on to because they worked at LinkedIn, which in itself is, you know, is an attraction and a reason to work there?

27:02 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
I think without a doubt I think that’s more of the norm is very few of us are going to work at and retire from one company. There’s going to be multiple journeys. I think that’s a reflection of how professionals are managing their careers now. I think it’s just a reflection of the evolving economic conditions and leaning into it, and one of my core philosophies is you treat professionals like professionals. Just opens up a more honest and transparent dialogue where we can all make the choices that are best for our own individual careers and aspirations, which may differ from person to person to person. Right, we may not all want the same thing out of these crazy journeys that we’re on.

27:46 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right and I think this kind of treating people as adults, having that grown up conversation, we’re not your family. We’re not going to look after you until you retire. We’re a place where we can still treat each other with respect and professionalism and we can be kind and treat each other with dignity, but we’re not your family. It is a relationship. It’s a professional relationship, isn’t it? And sometimes that means the right thing for you is to go on and do something and be successful somewhere else, and we wish you all the very best, and I think that’s a really powerful message.

28:21 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Well, you know, I think I might embody that philosophy in my own career journey. Right, I clearly moved to different companies and industries and roles because that was the learning I was seeking. But I’ll tell you, there’s not a month that goes by that I’m not reconnecting with someone from every one of those stops, because these professional networks last throughout the career and we talked earlier in this conversation about early mentors I have. I can still reach out to those individuals, many of whom are retired, and get the advice that I need, and I hope I do that to other colleagues or people that are, you know, reported to me during those periods of time.

29:01 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Absolutely. I just want to finish up by just kind of thinking about this retention issue and just to kind of get a sense of what else is it that you do at Go1 to make it an environment where people want to stay? I mean, I always prefer to think of retention like that. Retention feels somehow that you’re going to constrain them in the organization you know, never let them leave.

29:22
as opposed to, we’re going to create an environment for you where you actually want to stay, Not for 20 years, but maybe for four or five years. So what is it? You know, you talked about the line management piece, which I think is fascinating. What else is it that you do that makes Go One an environment where people want to stay?

29:42 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Well, you know, I guess one thing that comes to mind, probably because we just did it last week, is we lean into our learning culture, what our CEO calls our curiosity code, our code of curiosity.

29:56
And you know, one example is we did our learning day. We have two learning days per year and half the day is guided individual I shouldn’t say individual guided learning content. There were three sessions that were very applicable skill sets, things that were helping us develop new tools and techniques to be more effective in the way that we operate, what our company goals are. And then the other half of the day was dedicated to the individuals taking time off to go lean into their own learning and skill set development as they were choosing right. That’s dedicated and becomes part of that cultural fabric. We have individual learning budgets so that people can, part of the benefit, invest money to get the tools, the resources that they want for their own learning journey. So I love this kind of that they want for their own learning journey. So I love this kind of central push for a learning culture with some of the individual freedom for how to apply it.

30:56 – Lucy Adams (Host)
I think it’s a really good model. I was talking about individual learning budgets and freedom to expense books or other resources that you feel that might help you, and, of course, what you get often is the classic reaction Well, what about those people you know that aren’t doing work or aren’t learning or purchasing learning that is in alignment with the business’s priorities? And I just think, actually, you want curious people. You want curious people. Does that matter? If it’s basket weaving, it probably doesn’t, because you want people that are open to doing things differently, trying new things, and you will reap the rewards of that.

31:38 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
Well, I think we embody that. I think that’s one of the you know it’s called the secret sauce. We’ve got One is exactly what you said is what is ingrained in the culture, what is believed, and we could probably talk just like you said. Or there’s probably the you know what is it? The neurological connections, even in learning basket weaving, are creating new modes of thinking that can be applied elsewhere. Exactly so when you don’t try to control it all top down, I think you can get a more flourishing learning environment in which people are more freely sharing ideas.

32:09 – Lucy Adams (Host)
I think that’s absolutely spot on. Matt, that has been brilliant chatting to you I loved it. I love hearing what you’re doing at Go1. I love what Go1 does, which is great, but all the things that you’re doing, they’re really interesting and really fresh thinking. So thank you for joining us today. Where can people find you? Is LinkedIn the best route?

32:32 – Matt Kennedy (Guest)
us today. Where can people find you? Is LinkedIn the best route? Yeah, I don’t know if I keep a massive internet presence, but certainly have a LinkedIn page that I keep somewhat active and you can look up Matt Kennedy and go on, and I’m sure my profile is right there.

32:42 – Lucy Adams (Host)
What we’ll do is we’ll make sure we include the link to your profile in the show notes. Wonderful, matt. Thank you so much for joining us, and thank you everybody for listening. Thanks for watching. To get more videos like this, make sure you subscribe and turn on notifications.