From resistance to buy-in: Influencing the toughest leaders

00:03 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Welcome to HR Disrupted with me, Lucy Adams. Each episode will explore innovative approaches for leaders and HR professionals and challenge the status quo with inspiring but practical people strategies. So if you’re looking for fresh ideas, tips and our take on the latest HR trends, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So today we’re getting practical about a problem that every HR team knows too well, which is that if we’re going to do HR differently, our leaders and managers have to do things differently too, and that’s the really hard bit. Almost every HR person that I speak to tells me that they worry that they struggle to influence leaders effectively, and so this episode we’re going to look at how to get better at it. We’re going to look at why leaders resist, how to win attention without a 50 slide deck and the simple moves that can shift behaviour. And today I’m joined by my co-founder at Disruptive HR, Karen.

01:13 – Karen Moran (Host)
Moran. Hi Lucy, I’m excited about this one.

01:16 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, so did you feel that you really struggled to influence leaders when you were an HR director?

01:23 – Karen Moran (Host)
Yes, of course I did. I think, um, I think about it now, look in hindsight, and a lot of it is to do with personality, isn’t it? Because the leaders that I didn’t struggle with were the leaders that kind of that I got. They got me, you know, it was very easy, um, but when I look back, I think the leaders that I struggled with the most were where I I didn’t kind of I wasn’t really understanding their personality, their drivers, their motivation, where they were, what was going on for them, um, so I think yeah, I think that was my biggest issue yeah and yeah, and I definitely struggled as well and, I think, a bit like you.

02:04 – Lucy Adams (Host)
There were those that it was just easy you connected, you got each other, you shared the same language. But there were also large numbers of leaders that I really found it difficult and I would worry that I wasn’t having the impact with them, that they perhaps didn’t view me as being credible, and I think I made a lot of mistakes. When I look back, and so that’s what we’re really going to talk about today isn’t it?

02:33
We love sharing our humiliations, don’t we? But it’s going to be all about what can we do differently techniques that we know work. But let’s first of all just kick off by just looking at the reality of it. You know, we know that influencing leaders can be really hard work, and it’s not because they’re bad people, it’s not because they’re villains, it’s because they’re human. You know, when we ask them to do things differently, we’re asking them to take a risk. You know that they might get it wrong. Or we’re asking them to deploy, use new skills, but they might not have these skills and they’re worried about it. Or perhaps they haven’t even got the motivation to try. And, let’s face it, they’re really busy people, aren’t they? And so we’re asking them to do something new, and that means usually that they have to take their focus away from the day job, and they’re not usually very happy with that.

03:31
You know, when you and I talk to HR people, we kind of ask them what’s the resistance that they usually face from leaders? And these four types come up, don’t they? The first one is what we call the defiant, and that’s the type that says you know, we tried this in 1984 and it didn’t work then and it’s not going to work now. Or it might’ve worked in another type of organisation, but it just doesn’t work here. They’re completely shut down to any idea of change. The second type we call the intellectual, and this is those people my finance director was like this oh God, he was forever asking me for more data. Prove to me, yeah, give me the evidence, prove that it will work. And I think that those type, the intellectual resistors they’re having the same emotional response as everybody else, but they’re just cleverer at hiding it and camouflaging it with I would change, I just need more and more data.

04:39
Then we’ve got the third type, which is the busy operator, and that’s very common. We hear this a lot, don’t we? It’s just I haven’t got time. I’d love to, but I haven’t got time. And then the final type is what we call the reluctant, which is where they kind of think well, what you’re suggesting isn’t that your job, hr? It’s got nothing to do with me. So you know, each of these types kind of makes sense when you kind of dig a bit deeper. You know, we know that logic rarely changes behaviour. If something feels like it’s being done to them, they’ll dig in If it looks like it’s going to take a lot of effort, they’ll avoid it and any change, even if you don’t like the status quo. But any change always means some kind of loss. It could be loss of certainty, loss of status, that feeling of being the expert. So when we look at those types of resistance, how do you see them playing out?

05:47 – Karen Moran (Host)
Just building on what you’ve said. I think the defiant, they’re often very sort of those proud experts. You know. They’ve kind of they’ve built their whole careers on knowing how it works around here and so, you know, someone new and shiny comes in and maybe that feels quite threatening to them or maybe they’ve seen the failures in the past so they’re kind of going we know it’s not going to work here because we’ve seen it fail so many times. I think the, the intellectuals they just probably hide behind the data. So when they’re saying, show me research, it’s actually what they really meaning is I’m too scared or I don’t want to risk trying this.

06:29
And it’s interesting, as you know, when we do sessions on our club with our members and they talk about this, a big one comes up is they’re just too busy. And sometimes I want to push back on that in the sense that I would have had that same response. And when I think about what I was asking them to do, it felt like you know, do this process, fill in this nine box grid? Do this probation review? You know all the things I was asking them to do were all very much. This is a new process for you to do, manager, and so no wonder they’re going.

07:03
I’m busy, and I think you know, we know that if it, if it was useful, they wouldn’t. They wouldn’t be too busy for it, would they? And then I think, the reluctant ones, I think that’s again we have to take some blame, because we’ve been doing it for them, fixing their messes, making it easy for them to opt out, so no wonder they kind of started to see and you still see it now, don’t they where they say you know, go to hr if you’ve got a problem. It’s like they’re not really understanding the role that they play in terms of leadership versus what we should be doing as a function I think what we’re saying is that the resistance that we’re facing is largely just normal human reaction, isn’t it?

07:48 – Lucy Adams (Host)
It’s not that it’s hostile, and so I think it changes our response from how do I make them do this to how do I make this feel safe, simple and worth their time. How do I make this feel safe, simple and worth their time? And I think if we can kind of change that as our stance and our starting point, then I think we can approach it differently. So let’s look at how we can approach it differently, and we’re going to kind of cover 10 tips, aren’t we? Which sounds a lot, but hopefully we can rattle through some of this, and I think the first one that we start with is the kind of start with questions rather than programmes or processes. You know, I think too often we turn up with a shiny new initiative and a slide deck and all leaders. Here is more work, and instead I think a better way is if we start with great questions, ones that link directly to their world.

08:48 – Karen Moran (Host)
Yeah, I just really regret that I didn’t do more of this because, on a common sense perspective, I knew why we were asking them to do things they were doing, but I wasn’t linking it to their challenges. So for me, those sorts of questions it sounds very simple, but it would be with a manager saying what happens if we don’t tackle underperformance in your team you know, getting them to really think about that or if we don’t build these new AI skills this year, where is it going to hit us? You know those things that make them sit up and think, oh actually, that’s a good question and I haven’t really thought that through. Or let’s stop tweaking around the edges. If you could redesign your team from scratch, what would you do differently? So I think those questions put us in a much better place to get our leaders to really think about things differently.

09:41 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and I think when they’ve sort of said the problem out loud, they’re a bit more open to a solution. You know, and I think when they’ve sort of said the problem out loud, they’re a bit more open to a solution. You know, and I think when we skip the questions, yeah, what do we see happening?

09:53 – Karen Moran (Host)
well, my managers, they were sort of all got nods, you know, yes, yes, okay, and then do nothing, uh.

10:01 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So I think, yeah, you’re right, yeah, they’re the worst ones actually aren’t they the ones who, at least resisting, gives you something to engage with, but the ones that just nod politely and do nothing. You think that they’ve bought into it and yet nothing really changes. So first one is let’s start with better questions, and, you know, that kind of ability to really tap into something that might be worrying them, or at least getting them to reflect, I think, is definitely a good place to start. But, of course, once we’ve got the conversation going, we still need to get their attention. We need to cut through all of the noise and the you know, the other things that are demanding their time, and so I think our second tip would be using commercial data to get their attention, and I know this isn’t always easy, but it does tend to work best doesn’t it?

10:55 – Karen Moran (Host)
It does. And I think, again, you know it’s obvious, isn’t it, that we need to make sure that there is some commercial value in the options, the challenges, the offers that we’re giving our leaders. So just an example, two examples actually. So Credit Suisse they did some analysing in the background and we worked out that losing their top talent was costing them $70 million a year. So just even saying that figure, you know they start to think well, actually we can’t afford not to do anything about this. Best Buy they showed that a 0.1% bump in engagement bought in $100,000 extra profit per store. When you start making it about the numbers, they can see that the stores that had higher engagement were bringing in more money. So that’s where we start to really link what we do with kind of commercial value.

11:55 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, exactly, it’s about talking in their language, money, customers, performance, and we know that data on its own won’t change behaviour, but at least it opens the door and and that’s what we’re trying to do at this stage, isn’t it? You know, we’ve kind of started with great questions. We’ve used some commercial data to at least get them to sit up and take notice. Um, and now let’s go on to some of the other tips that we found have worked really well in terms of influencing, and you talked earlier about rocking up and and training managers in process. You know we’ve spent hours doing this, haven’t we?

12:35
You know, here’s the new process that we’re going to give you for talent or performance or engagement, but instead it’s If we focus on the outcomes that we want from them.

12:48
It can build a different type of reaction, instead of it being another process from HR. If we focus on these are the outcomes that we are expecting from you as a people leader, it can be very powerful, and a great example of this is SAP, or SAP I never know how to say it. You know they had three clear expectations or outcomes for leaders. They said we want you to lead with trust, show appreciation and coach your team. So they didn’t go into kind of huge amounts of detail about how they had to do that. They didn’t dictate how they had to do that. They didn’t have tons of process for that, but they were just very clear on these are the expectations. Lead with trust, show appreciation, coach your team. And then they measured it through regular pulses and they held people accountable. You know, and Salesforce leaders with poor people scores, just don’t get bigger teams to manage. You know, it’s as simple as that.

13:52 – Karen Moran (Host)
I just love that approach because I think it just respects that we’re. Every leader is different and will do it in their own unique way, but it still makes it people, leadership matter, and I think it just shows that difference between follow this process that we’re telling you about or achieve this result.

14:12 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and you know, leaders are used to being held publicly accountable for all sorts of other things, aren’t they? Financial results, operational results, but rarely do we hold leaders account when it comes to their people. And I think if we’re going to be influential, there has to be some consequences, doesn’t there? Okay, fourth one. Fourth tip is about giving leaders choices. You know, we often do mass rollouts and implementations with our one size fits all processes, but we know that when people feel that change is being done to them, they’re more likely to resist. That resistance does start to drop when they feel that they have a say.

14:57 – Karen Moran (Host)
I agree, and I think there’s Adobe that are really good at this. So they do this with performance management, where the manager and the employee agree between themselves what it’s going to look like for them. You know how often are we going to have check-ins, do we want to keep notes? Do you want to drive it? You know how do you like your feedback? So they’re kind of really personalising it down to that level in terms of this kind of manager’s feeling that they’ve got some choice, not being pushed to. This is how often you need to do it, and our cleaver took the same idea with hybrid working. So, instead of sort of doing the return to the office mandate, you must come in for three days or three days in two days out if you were given that instruction, can’t you?

15:49
And instead they said no, we’re not going to do that. We’re going to let you decide as teams what works best for you, because we’re all different, some will have much more flexibility than other areas, but you decide what works for you, what for your customers, for each other, and have your own kind of little team charter, which I just think again as you. You say it just means they’re much more open to it because they feel they’ve got some control over it themselves yeah, I think if you, if you feel like you’ve helped design it, you’re more likely to own it so yeah, I mean small choices, big commitment yeah, and even limited amount of choice, even if it’s would you like A or B, we know that can have a big impact on getting buy-in.

16:35 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So fifth tip is about making the change feel much smaller. So back to that resistor type that we talked about the time. Poor manager, the leader that just you know just is like yeah, I’d be interested but I just have no time available. And we know that when we’re asked to do something that feels like it’s going to take a lot of effort and time, we’re going to be more resistant to it. You know, big change feels really heavy, whereas small change, something that’s maybe going to take me five minutes or so, feels possible, and I think that’s definitely something that you and I probably regret.

17:15 – Karen Moran (Host)
Our change tends to be a bit big. I think again it’s because you feel that as a HR person it’s got to feel really I don’t know special and deep and commercial.

17:27
And actually it’s the small things that make the difference, and that’s why we we, you and I love the kind of nudge effect. Um, and google, uh, their famous whisper, which are nudges. So they did, obviously, did the research that showed them how much poor managers were costing them in terms of turnover. But rather than kind of going, you must all now go through a mandatory training programme. They just started with these kind of simple nudges, so they looked at the feedback of what employees were saying. They wanted more from their manager, and then they would send them a little email or WhatsApp or whatever it was saying. Try asking one extra question in your one-to-ones, try showing appreciation to someone in your team this week, you know, just small little reminders that we all kind of need, don’t we? Um? And I think what I loved about this as well, as they said, and let’s share what works, so peers were able to share what was working for them, and obviously scores engagement scores in terms of how they felt about managers went up, turnover went down.

18:33 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Um, it’s just much more manageable so if you were going to give one nudge, one of these small little changes to a really stretched manager, what would it be?

18:46 – Karen Moran (Host)
uh, what’s one process or stupid rule we could drop this week with zero impact? You know, do we say that enough?

18:56 – Lucy Adams (Host)
yeah, I think, yeah, and we don’t know. I I think mine would be asking get, just say to to leaders and managers, ask your individual team members what helps you do your best work and what gets in the way, because, again, I don’t think we don’t focus on that enough, do we this idea that actually a leader’s role is to kind of help their team do their best work? Okay, so we’ve looked at five tips. I’m just going to have a little pause here to talk about the Disruptive HR Club. You know, if you want to get more tools like this that we’ve been talking about templates, questions, nudges, case studies, all about how you can do HR differently, including how you can influence leaders then you can find them in the Disruptive HR Club, where we’ve got thousands of HR professionals who are learning how to do things differently, and we’ll put a link to the club in the show notes.

19:57
Ok, let’s move on to number six, which we’re calling Use Peers, not PowerPoint. You know, another technique that we can use is to tap into the research that we trust people like us more than we do experts. So it’s the same research behind the fact that I’ll trust a TripAdvisor review from somebody I’ve never met and their review of a restaurant more than I would the restaurant website. We know that leaders will listen to other leaders more than they will to HR, and we can use this and adopt that kind of peer-to-peer learning and communication as a way of helping leaders to change their behaviour. So this is where you bring a group of managers or leaders together but instead of training them in a traditional way, you pose scenarios and you get them to share how they have or how they would handle it, and it’s just such a great way of using that kind of peer pressure and peer advocacy to help them learn these skills.

21:06 – Karen Moran (Host)
Patreon, they do this sort of internal manager community. So it’s just on their Slack space and leaders talk to each other about what they’re doing, what’s working, what’s not working, asking for advice. It’s just so simple. And Novo Nordisk, they have what they call manager clubs. So again, as you say, no process, I love that. So again, as you say, no process, I love that. Not what I would do, which would be turn up with a 20-20 slide deck to take them through how to follow a process. Just informal sessions where they’re talking about. It might be let’s talk about hybrid working, or let’s talk about having difficult conversations or whatever the topic is, and managers just share and swap experiences. And that can be, I mean, at Novo Nordisk. That’s facilitated by HR business partners, but it can also be facilitated by leaders themselves. So completely up to you. So I just think you know it means we’re not chasing, they’re just, and they’re kind of starting to lean on each other rather than coming to us all the time.

22:10 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and they’re hearing what’s working and no one wants to be the person who’s not trying something that’s clearly working elsewhere, you know. So I think it’s that kind of peer pressure, using a bit of FOMO, peer advocacy and and just hearing from each other, rather than being trained by an external provider or HR. So we’re up to the seventh tip, which is all about speak human rather than HR. You know, language is just so important and it can absolutely make or break what we do. You know, the minute we call something the global performance enablement framework or something, you know we’ve just lost them, haven’t we?

22:55 – Karen Moran (Host)
so just kind of using this human language, some of our job titles in hr, and you just think, oh, I don’t even know what it means, never mind an employee. So yeah, I mean there’s just, we could just make things sound much better. So we’d take a few examples for you. Uh, telephonica instead of calling it a learning, learning sessions or training course, they called it learning shots, idea being showing that it was just a tiny amount of development, tiny amount of training that you can do in a couple of minutes. So instead of a tequila shot, you get a learning shot. Abercrombie instead of calling it their informal mentoring programme, they just called it touch base. And Virgin Trains called its benefits package you’re amazing which you know obviously fits really well, simple, warm. Which you know obviously fits really well, simple, warm, fits with their culture and doesn’t sound like the Virgin Trains reward and benefits programme.

23:55 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and sometimes it’s not. Our core strength is it in HR, using kind of perhaps more human marketing speak, or? And if it isn’t your strength, then thank goodness we now have AI to help us. So you know, you can just put in what you were planning to call it and just say it’s about making sure that we’re speaking human, not HR. And as, talking about language, I think that brings us to our eighth tip, which is about speaking their language, and you know, different leaders hear things differently, don’t they? And we need to really make sure we’re tailoring our message, because it can make a huge difference. I was talking to a client this morning and about a new strategy that they’re working on, and just, you’ve got those people that just want the facts, that just want the data. There’s others that need a story and a sense of the why, and so I think you know we need to get perhaps a little bit smarter at thinking about how we tailor our message.

25:13 – Karen Moran (Host)
Yeah, I think you’re so right and I think we started with this at the beginning in terms of influencing leaders, and one of my regrets was not understanding that. So I think there are broadly four types of kind of leaders that we’re dealing with. We have the kind of what we might call the driver, so they’re the person that wants you to get to the point fast, show, speed and impact Probably a bit of you, lucy, there, I think. And then we have the connector, and you can call them whatever you like. And they’re more perhaps motivated by emotion, by team, by caring about their team, so you want to show them how their team will shine.

25:54
The analyst will be the person that needs that logic, the evidence, so you’ll need to be sharing insights, not jargon. And then you have the kind of what you might call the steady hand, so they’re those risk-aware leaders who are just not up for it. So you might be thinking about, you know, small pilot, should we prove this in one other area before we kind of scale it? So you know, thinking about how you might position your language to get them to agree to you.

26:27 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So if you were talking to a driver and trying to influence them, what would you do?

26:32 – Karen Moran (Host)
Well, I do it with you all the time, Lucy. I’d give you three bullet points, I’d show you the outcome, the metric, the next step and then I’d shut up and I was didn’t know I was being manipulated.

26:47 – Lucy Adams (Host)
And what about the steady hand, the one that you described at the end?

26:51 – Karen Moran (Host)
you know the risk averse. Yeah, I think I’d probably be saying should we try this in one team just for three weeks and see how it goes, and you will see them kind of relax instantly. Um, when I think about there was a guy that I worked with when we worked at our law firm. His name was john. He was such a lovely, lovely man and he was someone that needed a lot of evidence, very cautious, very risk-free, and I’d turn up to him with meetings going. I’ve had this great idea. I think we should do this. Why don don’t we do this? Let’s go for it. What’s the worst thing that could happen? Let’s wing it. And he’d be like Karen, please stop. And he’d sort of send me away to go and kind of think about it more deeply before I came back to him again. So if I had known what I know now, I would have handled it very differently.

27:43 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, I worked in the rail industry for a while and I remember standing up in front of them. I was, you know, in my defence. I was a young manager, but I stood up. We were kind of inheriting this group of railway workers and leaders and I’m standing up, talking to them and I’m saying, oh, it’s all going to be amazing, there’s going to be all this change and and I suddenly realized that they were looking at me like I was insane and with on reflection, what I should have been doing was saying these things aren’t going to change, these are the things that are going to stay the same, because that’s what they needed to hear, that’s what was would work for them.

28:23
We’re up to our ninth tip and I think that this is possibly the biggie, which is asking ourselves why would they want to change? You know not why we want them to or why we think they ought to, but why would they want to change? And we often use the persona technique, don’t we, when we’re helping HR people, work through this with their leaders, because typically, you’re going to have again three types of leaders in terms of resistance to change. You’re going to have your biggest resistors, the ones that are always going to create a lot of noise and are really problematic and are not interested in doing anything differently. You’ve got those individuals and individual leaders that they’re kind of they would be open to it, but as long as it just helps them deliver results Right, they’re very, very focused on the business, outcomes, results oriented. And then you’ve perhaps got your early adopters, the ones that are intellectually a bit more hungry, a bit more curious. I know I’ve been guilty of this has always been to focus on getting the biggest resistors on board first. So we give them names, don’t we? We call the biggest resistor, we’ve just called them Michael Sorry to any Michaels who are listening. We’ve called the results-oriented leader the Jessica, to kind of make sure you give them a human name and a human face.

30:05
And then the early adopters we’ve called Olivia’s. And of course what we would do is focus on the Michaels. We would compromise, delay, dilute what we were going to, do anything to get them on board, have them on every consultation stakeholder group, and it never made any difference. Meanwhile, the early adopters, the Olivias, are getting frustrated because they want to do things differently and we’re saying, yeah, we’ll get to you in a minute, and they end up going rogue or getting frustrated and whereas we need to flip that on its head, you know we can kind of say to the Michaels you don’t need to worry about this yet, we’re going to be focusing our attention over here. We start with the Olivias, the early adopters, and then, once it’s working, we use them to win over the results-focused, pragmatic leader who will follow what works, the Jessicas.

31:03
You know, I think when I think back to my time in the BBC, you know I had one leader who was absolutely in the Michael category and I spent so much time with her and there I was avoiding the person, the Olivia, who was trying to get things going and do things differently. So I just think there’s, you know, we’ve got to focus our energies. Focus our efforts, rather, on where the energy is going with the energy, rather than wasting all of our team’s talents and energies and efforts on people who are perhaps never going to change. So let’s focus and go with the energy and work with the early adopters.

31:44
So, final tip, which we’re calling package it. Well, you know, even brilliant ideas will die if they look like hard work. So we’ve got to keep it simple. You know one clear title, one slide on why it matters one next step and telling them what’s not changing. Back to my example about the, the railway workers. You know, it’s basically we’ve got to be really kind of clear on our, our sales messaging and the kind of marketing yeah, I was just when you were talking about that rail industry.

32:17 – Karen Moran (Host)
I was thinking about an example. When we moved to where we were working, we moved to kind of flexible desks, which was actually quite a big deal at the time, and you know someone like me, yeah hot desking.

32:31 – Lucy Adams (Host)
That was it.

32:32 – Karen Moran (Host)
And then someone like me who loves change, loves something new, I was like this is great. I was so excited and I remember with my team kind of going right, guys, so from Monday, no fixed desks, we’re just going to move around and I don’t want to see you all at the same desk every day because we want to kind of have better conversations, be sitting next to someone you haven’t sat next to before and the kind of horror on their face. You know these people have been coming into the same desk for the last sort of you know 15 years or something. They’ve got all of their you know their pictures and their robbie williams posters.

33:11
And I’m saying from now, from monday, you know it’s fine. Um, it’s all gonna be great, it’s gonna be exciting.

33:18 – Lucy Adams (Host)
And we’ve got to kind of reduce the threat, haven’t we? And just package it in a way that that works for them, that brings together all of the tips that we’ve talked about, that kind of avoids the buttons that we need to avoid for them but hits the ones that are going to work for them. So we’re kind of creating, at least, perhaps, less threat and a little bit more curiosity. So let’s just kind of make this practical right. So let’s say you’re an HR business partner, you’re meeting a sceptical operations leader next week. How are you going to handle it?

33:52 – Karen Moran (Host)
Okay. So I would say, use one commercial number that they care about about Could be cost, turnover, customer impact. Agree one outcome. So let’s lift coaching your team by two points on the Pulse survey this month. Offer two options, going back to that idea of at least giving them two choices. Sometimes that’s enough. So 10-minute to ones weekly or 20 minute huddles fortnightly, you know whatever that might look like. Add a small nudge so one little question that they could ask in the next check in Share peer wins. So that team over there has seen this results in the last month and then measure it. So we’ll look at the mini pulse in two weeks. So you’ve kind of got your one to six there in terms of how you would do it Lovely, so simple, fast, but ultimately still quite human.

34:54 – Lucy Adams (Host)
And let’s finish with three things that people who are listening if they’re still listening by now that they can try this week. So maybe number one pick one leader and have a short chat no slides, just questions End with a clear outcome rather than a process. Number two think about creating two tiny nudges linked to that outcome and test them for a week. And maybe number three, rename one HR thing in plain language. You know if a busy manager wouldn’t instantly get it, rewrite it and use AI to help.

35:36 – Karen Moran (Host)
Yeah, I love that. I always do the. If I was explaining it to my mum, would she understand it?

35:44 – Lucy Adams (Host)
Yeah, and I think the influence isn’t about us pushing harder.

35:46 – Karen Moran (Host)
It’s about making it feel easy and worthwhile yeah.

35:52 – Lucy Adams (Host)
So start with questions. Use the numbers that matter. Focus on outcomes rather than process. Make sure you’re offering choice. Keep it tiny, keep it small. Let peers spread it rather than us being the expert, and hopefully these will help you be much more influential in your role. So thank you so much for listening to today’s episode. If you enjoyed it, please do like and subscribe, and we will see you next time.